LUBRICATION: MECHANICALS

OIL CHOICE

Subject: Which Oil?
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:47:38 +0000
From: Raf Dedal <studio@creativenet.com.au>

A couple of years ago when I had the Cali, I was told not to bother buying expensive oils eg. HPR30 (that I was using on my previous Duke) for the Guzzi. A good car oil will do due to the Guzzi motor being low stressed, old etc., I was told. Made sense....

So I've been buying Valvoline 20/40 (20/50?) ever since or similar "name " brand for half the price of HPR30 from the supermarket.

Subject: RE: Which Oil?
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:32:09 -0500
From: Steve & Liz KEALY <The_Kealys@compuserve.com>

OK - try this one:

The factory, she say for me, Ëh, you use-a da Agip olio, or da boys, they come aroun 'an' breaka you face, OK?"

So, I use Agip - and it's bloody rubbish! Turns to water and flows liberally out of the breather, allowing a nasty thudding noise and eventual failure to proceed in the LM1, a nasty tinkling noise in the Monza and even the poxy Honda-box rattles its tappets for hours in the morning. 5 litres lasts an awful long time in an oil-can...

Subject: RE: Which Oil?
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 08:29:52 +1000
From: "CROWE,Helen" <helen.crowe@deetya.gov.au>

I run Castrol Grand Prix ($25/4litres) in everything except the oldies (which run on straight 50). Grand Prix is a veg oil as opposed to a synthetic and there's less shear wear or something. I've got an article at home which mentions all the brands and gives a breakdown of their charcteristics, burning temps etc etc if you're interested I can give you a copy. Just to confuse the issue, Bob at Moto One tells me they run Shell VSX4 in all their Dukes, Guzzis, BMWs.

Subject: RE: Which Oil?
From: "shadow" <shadow@nlc.net.au>

>I run Castrol Grand Prix ($25/4litres) in everything except the oldies
>(which run on straight 50). Grand Prix is a veg oil as opposed to a

err grand prix is a mineral oil

Subject: Re: Which Oil?
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 09:14:02 +1000
From: Damian Carvolth <d.carvolth@cat.csiro.au>

I think this is the right path. I use Agip cos I get it in 20 l drums pretty cheap but Shell/Valvoline or any of those will do as long as you change it.

If you want toe 2 page explanation I'll type it up again for you but essentially no name $5 oil isn't much chop, boutique brands are a wank, and you change it often cos it flushes out the chemical contaminants which NO filter can remove and which can harm your engine. Like giving it a wash on the inside. I do it every 3k like the book says and where a filter is fitted every 15k. I change my diff and garbox oil more often than teh book says but that's me...:)

Subject: Re: Which Oil?
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 09:28:16 +1000
From: Rob McGill <rob@gbrmpa.gov.au>

OK, I'll bite at this one...

> The only thing with Synths is don't mix them with minerals, (Tonic water
> etc.) and make VERY sure that there is very little residue of the Min
> before you put the Synth in or you can have horrid problems, details on
> request but take my word for it.

I used to use the ol' "oils ain't oils" MKII in the T5, but was convinced to swap over to VSX4 about a year ago. Dropped the sump, cleaned to lickable (almost...;) ) changed the oil filter, wiped around the inside of crankcase (IOW, cleaned as much mineral-based out as I could)... Refilled. All seemed fine. NOW there's this mysterious engine-oil weep coming from the arse end of the crankcase: started about a month after changing oil types, but I'd changed the rear main oil seal, rear main bearing gasket and breather gasket about a year previously (so there was plenty of time BEFORE changing oil types for leaks to rear their uglies..). To make it even more curious, the normal drip from the crankcase breather after a hard blat has gone... The crankcase breather valve is relatively new, and IS clean (I thought if it had been r&^ted then maybe crankcase pressure may have found another vent, but...).

Subject: RE: Which Oil?
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:01:36 +0800
From: Theo Bekkers <tb@bekkers.com.au>

Oils is oils, as they say in the ads. There are no 'bad' oils on the market, but, IMHO, there are oils for different uses. Few manufacturers recommend a single grade oil for their engines nowadays. All recommend you use a multigrade oil for, what appears to me, to be sound reasons. I ran Valvoline 20/50 in two Guzzies for 18 years with no bad effects. For my current bike, a Cali 1100i, I use Shell Advance full synthetic.

Why? Because I want to and have been sort of convinced that synthetic oils work better, particularly in air-cooled motors. It costs a little (well, a lot) more. $36 for 5 litres. But that is my choice. I also use it in my car, that is probably very hard to justify, so I wont. :-) YMMV.

Subject: Re: Which Oil?
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 18:11:14 +1100
From: Peter Cusack <Peter.Cusack@tip.csiro.au>

If I remember correctly, my owners' manual recommends Castrol GTX.

That's a pretty basic oil these days. Undoubtedly you could put some very expensive oil in and reduce the wear marginally, but as Guzziology says, the secret of oils is to change them often. How much are you prepared to pay to pollute our waterways?

Subject: Re: Which Oil?
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 21:44:52 +1100
From: "nettleinghann" <jkn@dynamite.com.au>

Auto Pro oil is Valvoline in disguise. In winter the PB ran great on it but warmer weather caused a nasty vibration that I think was the timing gears so I've been running HPR 50 the 40-70 in the hot weather but will go back to Free Grandfather Clock with every 5 litres in may or june.

Subject: Re: Which Oil? - WARNING - Synthetic/Mineral mix
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 21:49:03 +1100
From: "nettleinghann" <jkn@dynamite.com.au>

The only thing with Synths is don't mix them with minerals, (Tonic water etc.) and make VERY sure that there is very little residue of the Min before you put the Synth in or you can have horrid problems, details on request but take my word for it.

Subject: Oils (again)
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 08:05:17 GMT
From: Damian Carvolth

Regarding Agip I'd clarify that I use their mineral 20W50, not the 15 W 50. I tried that and had similar problems to those reported by someone who's name I forget who posted this am.

The 20W50 stuff seems ok but the flash stuff apart from being dearer ran thin and leaked more...But as I said I'm not partial to brands, it's all yellow and slippery...

I haven't tried their synthetic, and hell will freeze over before I put it in the S3. Synthetics are great for bikes designed for them but the advantages for old knockers like mine are debatable. Synthetics allow closer tolerances and reduced oil friction in squeezy places but since old guzzis are designed with thick oil in mind they run big gaps and the synthetics offer no real advantage. Yes they have less additives so don't wear out (oil's don't wear out BTW the additives do) but they still absorb chemical contamination at the same rate and the sulphuric acid etc floating around in the oil doesn't disappear.

Some synthetics have additives that react with viton and other stuff that could be in your motor. Viton is an alternative material for O rings, so if you have brown ones then SOME synthetic oils may take to them...

Now this sounds like I'm anti synthetic. I'm not. If you run it and it makes you feel good and your bike hasn't died then go for it, and I believe they are essential for bikes recommended to run with them, but I don't recommend them for 19th century tractor engines...err older Guzzis...This is just my 2c and if it offends you then we'll take the discussion to private email please :)

Subject: RE: OILS AINT OILS & WSC
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:16:19 +1000
From: "CROWE,Helen" <helen.crowe@deetya.gov.au>

20w-50 is ok. Don't have any info on Ampol specifically, but the Shell VSX4 mentioned yesterday, is, (according to the blurb) "a synthetic on Shell's own XHVI base, and is recommended for all high performance four stroke engines. API rating SG 15w50". BTW (again according to the blurb) SF oils do not combat black sludge deposits and are not suitable for engines fitted with variable valve control systems. SG oils were introduced to combat sludge and to curb cam and rocker wear.

Subject: Re: OILS AINT OILS .
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:33:13 +1100
From: "nettleinghann" <jkn@dynamite.com.au>

Darrell wrote:
On another matter. I have just performed LMIV's first oil change after about 3000kms since purchase. It was filthy and thick, makes me think it hadn't been changed for a while. Any way I have used Ampol Max3 20W-50. Is this OK???? or should I get thicker stuff. I think someone mentioned they were using 40W-70?????

Yeah, Darrell it was me that's using the 40-70 but only in the hot weather. The reason is that the Valvoline 20-50 I usually use didn't seem to be doing all it might when things got hot. This manifested itself in the form of a very high frequency vibration through the right clip-on and footpeg!!!! Experience told me that it felt like a gear train so after much head scratching and working out that it was engine speed related not road speed related I surmised that it had to be the timing gears. Bevel Drive Ducatis, which are basically a big box of gears with a couple of pistons inside tend to like a straight 40 or 50 grade to protect their innards and working on the principle that 'cos the Guzz is a plain bearing motor a multigrade might be more suitable I opted for the 40-70 which has a low enough base viscosity to not risk spinning bearings, IN THE HOT WEATHER, this is very important!!!!!

The higher operating viscosity should help protect the gears. The results have been very succesfull, the vibration has disappeared and it all feels much happier. I gave a lot of attention to details like bearing clearances when I built the motor so I'm sure that the harshness was gear related. In the case of your machine where you are running a timing chain there would be no benefit to running the 'Thicker' oil unless you were planning to do very long trips in very high temperatures. The disadvantages of the heavier oil are that you have to be much more carefull about warming the beast up to operating temp. The internal friction of the lubricant itself, if pumped into bearings at sufficient pressure, can cause shell bearings to spin in their housings. The oil pressure relief valve in your sump should prevent this happening but if the ambient temperature is too low the oil may be too thick to pass through it fast enough and bearing pressure can reach the evel where damage can occur.

As Damian has said what oil you use is really a personal choice, I don't trust synthetics and they are IMHO uneccessary in a Ditchpump and I wouldn't put Castrol in my lawnmower!!!! but these are personal opinions.

What is important is to change it regularly to get rid of the nasty solutes that do most of the damage to the insides of motors. With the PB I drop he oil every 6000 Km. And the sump for a filter change every second oil change. The bevel box oil I do at each engine oil change 'cos there's so little of it and the gearbox, in theory gets a change every time I do the filter but I get a bit slack about this sometimes.

Ampol Max3 is fine, slop it in and go for a strop, have you got round to doing anything about that leaky rocker feed yet?

Subject: Oils (again)
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:54:44 +1100 (EST)
From: John Ferguson <alsaust@ozemail.com.au>

Damian wrote:
<snip>
>1. Now this sounds like I'm anti synthetic. I'm not. If you run it and it
>makes you feel good and your bike hasn't died then go for it, and I
>believe they are essential for bikes recommended to run with them, but

Oils seems to be a fashion choice in many instances. Belray, Corse Plus, Penrite and Pennzoil have all been "the best" according to bike shop and club gossip at some point or another over the last 20 years. Well they have in Melb. anyway. The rise and fall of popularity is inevitably encouraged by apocryphal tales of wonderment or horror. So long as the grade is appropriate and they're changed frequently, I don't think it really matters all that much.

That said, I've always used HPR50, and I stick into anything that I don't want to squeak. Like someone else, I buy it in 20l drums.

> 2. I don't recommend them for 19th century tractor engines...err older Guzzis.

I'm with Damian on this, for the same reasons. Frequency of changes is probably more critical than what you put in. A Guzzi engine is a mild beast with good filtration and separate gearbox oil, so will treat oil fairly gently. Anything that sends the engine oil through gnashing and crashing of gears and the barking of sliding dogs in a gearbox treats oils rudely, no matter how good the filtering, and needs more frequent changes. If it goes though sliding-shearing contact gears as well, the frequency goes up again.

Hence I change the Monza at 5,000km, filter 10,000, and the Deadcat (when it goes) at 1,500km.

Subject: Oils & Oils
Date: 05 Sep 1998
From: bryanb@dove.net.au (Bryan Both)

Did an oil change yesterday. Decided to use up the part bottles of straight 50 I had lying around. But didn't have quite enough, so topped up with multigrade - maybe 0.5 - 0.75 l. Does anyone think this will cause problems? They are both shell, for what that's worth. I can't see it being a drama myself, but I'm asking because conventional wisdom says you don't mix oils.

Subject: Re: Oils & Oils
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998
From: "Ivan Cooke" <IvanGD@bigpond.com>

Bryan, done the same thing,I went through a few changes(of brands) I still believe what really counts is clean oil as in oil change and filters, and warm the poor beast up. I warm mine up while I finish dressing etc - leathers,helmet & boots.Sometimes 5 min sometimes a couple of minutes,then when I go I can get up and GO. I stay with 20/50 oils mostly and most have been auto oils; no wet clutch ( is that when you ride in the rain) Regards

Subject: Re: Oils & Oils
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998
From: "shadow" <shadow@nlc.net.au>

Mixing oils there is only a problem when it is mineral and synthetic mixing mineral oils there is no problem {since we are not talking about lsd's or wet clutches of any sort.

Subject: Re: Oils & Oils
Date: 07 Sep 1998
From: Damian Carvolth <d.carvolth@cat.csiro.au> wrote:

>You use straight 50 in a guzzi ?

Not normally. But when Jonesy rebuilt it, he recommended HD50 for the run-in - 1st 3k. Dunno why, but since he was warranting the motor, I thought it only fair to comply. That's why I had some lying around. And a change was due and I didn't have a spare $20. I figured it was better than stretching the change period.

>multiweight in mine...valvoline now cos it's cheap...

I'm staying with bike oil because I figure an air cooled motor has a wider temp range than a water cooled car donk.

Subject: Re: Oils & Oils
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 16:43:14 +1000
From: "Roper" <jkn@dynamite.com.au>

Valvoline is a good oil, the last generation one is a 20/50 that I ran for ages with no complaints apart from the timing gears not liking it. As I believe I have said before the 'Auto Pro' brand is last generation valvoline repackaged as a generic item. I'd still use it in the car if I didn't buy Penrite in bulk. Guzzi motors definately go better with a multigrade unless you've got timing gears.

Subject: RE: Oils & Oils
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998
From: BERNIE DWYER <bernie@caloundra.qld.gov.au>

As a matter of interest, I've got timing gears in the lemon; had them for many moons, now and the latest report is that they're wearing well.

Pertinent facts:

1. These gears are all metal - two of alloy with case-hardened teeth, and a steel idler.

2. Consequently splash lubrication is supposed to be sufficient, and there weren't any additional holes drilled to allow the gears to run in an oil bath

3. I used AGIP multigrade for many years

4. Now I use Valvoline 20/50

I wonder what effect this will have on the gear wear rate?

Subject: Re: Oils & Oils
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998
From: "Roper" <jkn@dynamite.com.au>

> 2. Consequently splash lubrication is supposed to be sufficient, and
> there weren't any additional holes drilled to allow the gears to run in an oil bath

Generally the recomendation is that the drain holes in the base of the timing chest be filled with epoxy to form the bath and a couple more drilled above the level of the oil pump, (Avoiding the galleries of course:-)). I did this 'cos (a) It's easy. and (b) It seemed sensible but there again the gears ran fine for 20,000 miles without the oil-bath treatment so (Shrug.) take yer pick.

Subject: Re: Oils & Hols
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 17:25:31 +0930
From: "Ivan Cooke" <IvanGD@bigpond.com>

If one 's running cam gears [gear cams] what oils does one consider?? I understand some of the new ones are running Mobil 1 as OEM. Is there any most popular oil down your way??

Subject: Re: Oils & Hols
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 10:41:53 +1100
From: "Roper" <jkn@dynamite.com.au>

Ivan asked;
> If one 's running cam gears [gear cams] what oils does one consider?? I
> understand some of the new ones are running Mobil 1 as OEM. Is there any
> most popular oil down your way??

Barry Jones at IME swears by Mobil 1. I think such a sophisticated oil is wasted in a shitbox Guzzi. I still run the Auto Pro 'El-Cheapo' in the PB in the colder months and then change to Penrite HPR Primium a 20/60 from late spring to early autumn. If we get an exceptionally hot spell I stick in HPR 50 especially if I'm going touring. Really though the El-Cheapo is probably good enough for all seasons. The motor was designed back in the early '60's and any modern oil is so superior to what was available then I think it'e pretty much irrelevant :-)

WARMING UP

Subject: Warming up (was Oils & Oils)
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998
From: Simon & Helen <scfhms@ibm.net>

Ivan Cooke wrote:

> Bryan, done the same thing,I went through a few changes(of brands)
> still
> believe what really counts is clean oil as in oilchange and filters,
> and
> warm the poor beast up.

I'd be interested to hear the collected Aigorian wisdom on `warming up'. I know anyone with brain cells warms up the engine before (even thinking about) thrashing but some people swear by the warming up before riding off while others suggest that warming up is best done by gentle riding rather than idling with no load. Maybe it doesn't really matter as long as it is warm one way or the other. What damage (other than possible overheating) could idling cold with no load do? My personal preference has always been to idle long enough to achieve steady running then go gently. This could just be cos neither of my Guzzis would ever idle without attention every 30 seconds or so. I don't recall what Guzzi manuals say (prob incomprehensibly) but both BMW manuals we have state you should ride off as soon as poosible after starting and I would have thought these should be fairly similar in stress terms. [leaves open for witty comments]

Subject: Re: Warming up (was Oils & Oils)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 20:31:43 +0930
From: "Ivan Cooke" <IvanGD@bigpond.com>

HelenS,what I do is after she gets warmed up, I still like to take things gently for a while. It's after a fair few minutes riding that then I will start giving her a bit of a blast; gently bently and it will last longer.

Subject: Re: Warming up (was Oils & Oils) + the Scott thing.
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 21:22:31 +1000
From: "Roper" <jkn@dynamite.com.au>

On the warming up front I've always found that holding the throtle open at valve bounce until the headers glow dull red is quite effective. Being serious though most modern oils are quite capable of preventing boundary lubrication as long as nothing monumentally stupid is done, (See above.).

Wear takes place when there is a break in the film of oil on bearing surfaces or the teeth of gears etc. Warming up is more to do with making the great pile of pus easier to ride these days but having said that I always take it easy until the sump feels warm (Once you know how long this takes you can make allowances for ambient temp.) By the time the engine oil is warm the gnashing of teeth in the gear and bevel boxes has usually got those acceptably runny to do the job properly. After that just ride the tits off it :-)

Subject: Re: Warming up (was Oils & Oils)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998
From: Damian Carvolth <d.carvolth@cat.csiro.au>

Well my 2c...

I don't conciously. I ride gently anyway so I fire it up and within seconds ride off. Mine takes about 15 minutes to get reasonably warm then I notice a second transition about 40 mins into a ride. I guess I do take it easy for at least the first 15, but I do it unconsiously becuase the bike "feels" unhappy before that.

Subject: RE: Warming up (was Oils & Oils)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998
From: "Sanders, Peter" <Peter.Sanders@dsto.defence.gov.au>

Ahem! Finally here's something I know enough about to make a useful post!

Warming up _any_ engine would be OK _if_ the carburation (or equivalent) were anything like "normal" mixture -- but it ain't. The mixture at idle contains two to three times as much petrol as that when the throttle is open even at the 60kmh setting. This has to be because the efficiency of atomisation at this low air flow rate is very poor.

Now take the combination of low engine temperature, super rich mixture and poor fuel atomisation and you know what happens? Yup, condensation in the cylinder, washing lubricant off the cylinder walls; transfer of condensate to the sump via blow-by diluting the oil. And this is before we've even considered the effect of using the choke!

The consensus of informed opinion is that it is better to only warm the engine to the point where it will pull a low gear without strain (with a Guzzi, that mean 2.5 seconds) then move off slowly with tiny, tiny throttle opening in low gears until the whole plot is happy to ride normally. Remember that the gearbox and the final drive also need to be warmed gently before being subjected to significant loads - this method achieves that warmup without sacrificing the engine warmup at all. Realise that if you warm the engine at idle then ride off normally then you are subjecting a cold gearbox and final drive to normal loads - not good!

Of course if you live 100m from the freeway that you commute on then this warm-up method would be difficult to achieve - it's not advisable to cruise at 40k on freeways! 8-()